Tuesday, February 2, 2010
Student-led discussion over Pudd'nhead: take one
If you choose not to verbally participate in the discussion today, please share your thinking with your classmates in a written discussion on the class blog. Please contribute at least a few thoughtful comments or questions throughout the course of today's discussion.
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Why did Twain decide to make his story about Black and White people? Why not Hispanic or Native American or any other race?
ReplyDeleteDoes Mark Twain give a biased opinion on slavery in the book?
ReplyDeleteI think what getting "sold down the river" means is that you are sold further into the south and further down the Mississippi, where things are worse and there is more of a tradition of cruel slave ownership. It is compared to hell within the text.
ReplyDeletePaige just said that she thought it was ironic that Roxy switched her son with Tom so that he wouldn't get sold down the river, but eventually he sells her down the river. What do you think about that?
ReplyDeleteIn my head, down the river means down into the deep south, like Sydney said. They mean going down into the plantations where slaves were treated like dirt and forced to do terrible work. You heard talks of slave owners beating slaves, which you never hear about in Dawson's Landing. It is really just a much more harsh kind of place.
ReplyDeleteMarie- I think Twain decided to make his story about Black and White people because that is what he knew. He could easily portray events that went on because he could associate with that period of time making it easier to write about.
ReplyDeleteMarie-
ReplyDeleteI believe it was because that slavery was a big issue at the time, especially in the south
Something I have been pondering throughout the course of our readings is how cruel Tom has been to the people in his life and how ironic it is that he wasn't supposed to live such a privelaged life. Do you think that if Roxy had not made the switch the two boys would have the same personalities they do now?
ReplyDeleteNick, is there such thing as an unbiased opinion in this time period?
ReplyDeleteMarie, I believe that Twain chose black and white people because the contrast in treatment back when there was segregation was so drastic. It is very easy to show how a slave was treated because, once upon a time, it was the norm.
ReplyDeleteMarie--
ReplyDeleteTwain grew up in Hannibal, MO. He had first hand experience with witnessing slavery and therefore knew the most about the wall that had been implaced between the blacks and the whites.
Marie-
ReplyDeleteI think Twain chose to focus around black and white races because this was a large focus at the time period in American history...blacks were just freed from slavery, and they were trying to fit into society, and they were the largest minority in the U.S. I think.
Marie-
ReplyDeleteIt is possibly because the most common race problem of the day and age of the time period had to deal with white and African American people. This book was written based on what happened in Twain's childhood. So thus resulting in the main conflicts of the time era. Also, Hispanic and Native American race conflicts was not as big as a problem within the United States as the differences between African Americans and white people.
To go along with Grant, in the book it says that slave owners down the river are more harsh and very mean, therefore the slaves are thankful to be "up the river" and fear being sold down the river. Another reason that Roxy might have been so upset was because that Tom had said she was being sold up the river, and not down.f
ReplyDeleteMarie-I think Twain probably wrote about black and white people because that is what was prevalent in those times. Years before, when America was brand new, Native Americans were a big issue, but not so much in the 19th century. As for Hispanics, I think that is a big issue now, but not so much then either. It seems like the interraction between whites and blacks was the most prevalent issue in society then.
ReplyDeleteIs it fair to say that Twain would agree that it is nurture and not nature that determines a person?
ReplyDeletemarie- i think that Twain wrote about this because it was what he knew. I couldn't tell you if these events are true, but the aspect of how the whites and the blacks acted is seen in his novel. It is what he went through childhood with, so he wrote about it.
ReplyDeleteMarie, I think that Twain wrote about Blacks and Whites because that is what he grew up with. The movie that we watched at the beginning of the unit said that most of his work was based on his own experiences. All throughout his life he was around slaves and slave owners. And it had a great impact on his life.
ReplyDeleteSarah - You said that you think Twain made his story about Black and White people because it was such an issue. Are you suggesting that Twain believed that slavery was wrong?
ReplyDeletePaige- If the boys had not been switched, I don't think they would have the same personalities as they do now. I think Tom is the way he is based on the circumstances he was raised. He was told that he was white and was above the slaves. His cruel behavior is a result of the status he thought he was born into.
ReplyDeleteKailyn, well i've heard that Twain was seen as ahead of his time in his views, and there were people who were either against or for slavery. I'm asking if you feel he is for, or against slavery, based on the descriptions in the book.
ReplyDeleteKailyn-I think Twain would completley agree that nurture is more important than nature. We dont know what Tom might have been like if he had been born a slave, but we know how he is as a white man. He holds his own, speaks normally, and leads a fairly priveleged life and doesnt seem out of place. The typical stereotype then was that black people were not able to hold their own in society. Tom proved that wrong.
ReplyDeletePaige- I think that if Tom found out he was a slave at an early age he wouldn't be so rude towards people. He had that attitude because he knows that he has power over others and because he is from a wealthy household they can't do anything about it. I think if Roxy knew her son would be the way he is before she swtiched the babies then she would have thought about making that decision more. Tom's attitude is just like the slaveholders and wealthy whites even when he found out that he was black, probably because he was so comfortable with his life as a white man.
ReplyDeleteMarie-
ReplyDeleteI agree with the others that the largest racial tension has been between white and black Americans. It's kinda funny that the true colors white and black are the most contrasted colors.
Paige-
ReplyDeleteI think that if the boys were not switched, that the personalities would be the same because the circumstances defined Tom. However, I kind of agree with Cheslea in the circle because the same actions that Tom took would have been different. (if that makes sense...) Actions are differ from personality.
Sami-
ReplyDeleteIt is ironic how Roxy tries to help make her sons life better so that he is not sold down to the river. But I believe that under his circumstance, he was raised as a white child. He was raised under the arrogance of how the white man is superior to others. Thus resulting in the idea that he would sell his mother down by the river so that she would not tell his secret. His secret being that he was black. Tom may believe that his only way to "save" himself from his secret was to sell his mother down by the river. A plan always backfires. Roxy's plan backfired about how she wished her son would be a good man, but he changed and wasn't. Tom's plan may backfire as well, for Roxy may come back.
Kailyn- I think it is fair to say that. We see how dramatically Tom's attitude changes once he finds out he was born a slave. I think the upbringing of a person largely determines who they are.
ReplyDeleteAre there stereotypes that are found in Luigi and Angelo's characters that are surfacing? Or are they going against stereotypes?
ReplyDeleteI think Twain did believe that slavery was wrong. Remember that he wrote in a satirical manner so anything that seems like he agrees with slavery could just be him making a larger point by showing how ridiculous it seems to support it.
ReplyDeleteEveryone - Mark Twain also wrote The Prince and the Pauper. There are many repeated ideas in this story as there are in Puddn'head such as two boys trading places. What does that say about him, if anything?
ReplyDeleteKailyn W.-
ReplyDeleteYes, it is fair to say that Twian would agree that it is nurture that determines a person, because when "Tom" was born he was supposed to be the slave, but no. He talks with no dialect, where as the real Tom does not think of himself as a slave at all.
Marie-
ReplyDeleteI think that Twain did think slavery was wrong, but he didn't show that through Pudd'nhead. I was just saying that in his time period events and life was centered around slavery and the end of it. It affected Twains writing because it was relevant.
Nick, that is a good question... but I don't think there is a definite answer. I think he recognizes the ironies of slavery but he definitely doesn't portray the slave in a very positive light, neither though is his portrayal of the slave master good. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteKailyn and Kaeli,
ReplyDeleteI Think that Twain's argument is that there is no difference on the nature level, people aren't born nicer or better, all difference is in the nurture.
Hailey- I think stereotypes are arising in Luigi and Angelo. They are "exotic" to the townspeople and they seem to enjoy that thouroughly and do not in any way conceal the grand adventures of their life.
ReplyDeleteMarie- I think Twain's whole view on life was that it doesnt matter where you were born in life, you can always change it, that not everyone is exactly how he is predicted to be. I think Twain wants to prove that if you are born poor, you dont have to be poor for your whole life.
ReplyDeleteHailey, I think that the Italian twins embody everything that a stereotypical slave was not. They were the antithesis of a slave. He described the twins as well educated, classy, and very talented within many fields.
ReplyDeleteMarie-
ReplyDeleteMaybe Twain is trying to emphasize the point that it is not your birth that defines who you are, it is how you are brought up and how you are raised. It's also interesting how Twain goes by a pen name, like he wants another identity.
Kailyn-
ReplyDeleteYeah. It is acceptable to say that Twain would agree that it is nurture and not nature. When someone is born in a type of environment, he or she is raised in the environment due to the nurture of whoever took care of him. Now the nature of a person is what happens to them when they decide to put the big kids shoes on and start getting some independence. However, if the environment for a child is great, such that the mother is caring and the father is a strong role model, the child will learn from how his parents can nurture him, but learn from their nature. So it is kind of hard to differentiate the difference between the two because they are so closely intertwined. But as Madi and Sydney is just saying, Tom never had the true figure of a 'real' mother. So it goes back to the nurture aspect.
Ok, so it seems as if we agree that Twain puts nurture on a higher importance then nature in the terms of upbringing, do you agree with this point of view.
ReplyDeleteHailey- I think that the tiwns themselves haven't stereotyped themselves, but with the talk from the town about them being foreigners and different then the rest seem to stimulate the stereotype of just people different than you or from a different country. When the judge expressed to the town about the assassination, then the townspeople didn't trust them more and being different in the town didn't help either.
ReplyDeleteKailyn,
ReplyDeleteI think that Twain takes a very realist perspective on slaves and slave owners. both sides have faults, and Twain paints both of those sides very well. He takes a very humanistic outlook on the issue of slavery.
Kailyn, I agree. I feel that he decided not to portray a definite opinion that was in your face, like: I Don't Like Slavery! But through his satire and irony, he seems to be more on the agianst slvery side of the arguement.
ReplyDeleteSo does the person that comes in from a "far away place" seem to attach a stereotype to themselves right away? What have Angelo and Luigi done in order to create a name for themselves and how do they compare to the stereotypes of the other characters?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that the fact the twins are Italian makes them seem more interesting to everyone in the town?
ReplyDeleteMariah, do you agree with Twain about nature and nurture?
ReplyDeleteGrant - I hadn't thought of that before, but it is so true! Twain, his entire life, wanted to "do it all". He was a steam boat captain, a writer, and a million other things too. Maybe he is trying to tell his readers that they can do it too.
ReplyDeleteKailyn-
ReplyDeleteI would agree and disagree. You need both nurture and nature in order to be balanced in both aspects. However, when a child is little, one needs to understand that nurture is more important than the possible nature. Now when the child grows up, than the nature of them is more important. Nature is basically their personality. It is portrayed by their actions. So in order for them not to let's say embarrass the family name like Tom, then they must have a strong nature in order to succeed.
Marie, I think the fact that he wrote both books shows that he doesn't believe in a strict difference between social classes if there's a thin enough line for people to cross it and become someone else.
ReplyDeleteGrant- the difference that is seen in the twins is something that is new and exciting. They are mysterious so their background is unknown. Everyone knows everything about everybody in the town, but when someone new comes in, there is nothing known so they try to figure it out. There is a new adventure waiting with each new specimen that enters the bubble of our lives
ReplyDeleteAustin, Commenting on the Prince and the pauper comment:
ReplyDeleteThis says that anyone can be a prince, no matter what their background. It also says things such as "The grass is always greener on the other side."
If Roxy had not switched her baby, Tom would have grown up like every other non-white slave child, ashamed of the color of their skin and fearful of their masters.
Grant- I think it is the small town aspect that makes them seem so interesting. The townspeople are all used to each other and they know a lot about each other. When they see people from a different country it gets them excited about what they can learn about the places and people around them after being in a small radius of towns for a long time.
ReplyDeleteGrant-I think that they are so much more interesting because they are from somewhere so different. In the 1800's, people only knew americans mostly, because they couldnt really get out of the country very easily. They didnt have enough money for a boat, and there were no airplanes. So when someone from Italy shows up, they are excited that something different is in their town, and cant wait to talk to them and hear about this different, glamorous life that they have made up in their heads
ReplyDeleteGoing along with what Mary Catherine is saying, do you agree that a stereotype is an outline for your actions?
ReplyDeleteGrant- I think it is because they posses an element of mystery to the people in the town. Most of the people living there have never traveled outside of the town. They places the twins speak of are so amazing to the townspeople because it is something they know nothing about.
ReplyDeleteMarie, I think that it shows that Twain thought that anything was possible. In both stories, characters are born into two different classes, almost, two different worlds, but just because you are born into a certain situation it doesn't mean that they are stuck there for life. They can always strive and work to make your life better and try and make those lives around you better.
ReplyDeleteI agree Elaine, I don't think that there is any one answer, it's a ying and yang relationship perse
ReplyDeleteKailyn -
ReplyDeleteI somewhat agree with Twain's view on nurture over nature, in the fact that Tom is brought up in a manner which makes him very snotty. But when Tom is kicked by one of the twins, he does not immediately think to challenge the twin to a duel, which would be a family trait of his "family". If this statement were fully true, (that nurture fully overcame nature), then wouldn't Tom automatically think to challenge the twin to a duel?
Grant-
ReplyDeleteIt is possible that the town is very small. We, as the reader, read the text knowing that the town is a small town. Everyone knows each other and everything about each other. So that thus suggests that when their is a new person in town, people tend to be attracted towards them to get to know them better. Then they could possibly brag about it. But it also may be curiosity that makes the town want to know who the Italians are. Such asking the questions of Why are they here in our town? Why our town? What do they want?
Grant- I think that the fact that the twins are Italian makes them more interesting because it is not something the people in the town get to experience every day. To them, the twins are so different and exotic that it fascinates them. They know little to nothing about these individuals which makes them curious as to their past and way of life. Italy probably seems like a world away and I think they are desperate to learn more about the 'foreign' culture.
ReplyDeleteGrant-
ReplyDeleteIt gives them an "exotic" and "mysterious" feeling. No one in the town has really traveled out of the United States . In the book tghey say "'Think- They have traveled in Europe and everywhere! Theres never been a traveler in this town before!'" This just shows that it was a new experiance for every one, and they were just curious.
Kailyn, I think that a stereotype can be an outline for a person's actions. Take Paris Hilton for example, she is not as uneducated as she seems but she acts that way because that is what people want and expect of her.
ReplyDeleteEvery thing that Luigi and Angelo did I think has perpetuated the stereotype of "the grass is greener on the other side". In the twin's case difference is better, but in the case of slavery, the difference in skin color is detrimental to blacks. What do you think encourages the good/bad stereotypes and views of others?
ReplyDeleteKailyn- absolutely. I think that when a black person is born in the ghetto, it ise immediately assumed that they will join a gang, and live a life full of crime. I have heard that it is tough to get out of the ghetto. It is their choice to try and get out of that and lead a different life, but they are accepted as they are, because that is their stereotype.
ReplyDeleteKailyn, I think that many times, stereotypes force people to act a certain way, so that the status quo wouldn't be changed.
ReplyDeleteKailyn, I do not believe that stereotype is an outline for your actions. Though it is true that we are sometimes guided by prejudice, I believe that a majority of the time we are not lead by something that allows us to judge other people.
ReplyDeleteI believe that a stereotype is not an outline for your actions. unless it is drilled into your head that "Your a blond rather than as a groupyou are supposed to be ditsy and foolish," you don't have to be clumsy. Our actions define us separately rather than as a group. The only reason there is a stereotype, is because some high ranking official said it is that way.
ReplyDeleteThis is in response to kailynw2012 comment
Kailyn, I don't think that a stereotype is an outline for your actions but they can become an excuse for your actions. For example, some people may hear that they are stupid over and over again, after a while, they will eventually give up on being smart and use the stereotype of them being stupid to excuse themselves from being smart.
ReplyDelete