It's our last Gothic fishbowl. Sigh. Let's make it a good one.
Please continue to keep in mind the expectation that you are an active participant throughout the discussion and that you contribute at least 3 times. Otherwise, keep up the good work! Let's particularly focus on theme as well as connections to our guiding question.
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Alright, so I was wondering what you all think about why the author ended the story the way that they did?
ReplyDeleteThis story is much more modern than some of the other stories we have been reading. Do you think that the same themes are still found in this story as in the older stories? What are some different ones, if any?
ReplyDelete@Everyone- What do you guys think happened to the girl in the end? Also how do you think the man got Connie to do whatever he wanted? It seems like he got control over her somehow....
ReplyDeleteMost stories end with a good and complete ending so that most questions are answered. I think that Joyce Carol Oats was trying to leave it empty. I mean in most of our minds we feel that she will either get killed or raped or something because that is what society has made us believe. So I think that she is letting us figure out what happens to the girl...
ReplyDeleteDrew- I think she ended the story this way so that it's open ended. With an open ended story the reader can start to imagine what has happened after the writing has stopped. It also makes the story feel more gothic because it is kind of scary to think about what can happen after the story has ended.
ReplyDeleteI think the author was making a comentary on family structure and relationships. For example, she has such a terrible relationship with her family but she sacrifices so much for them in the end. What is the message the author is trying to get across here?
ReplyDeleteDrew, I think the author ended the story in this way so to leave a greater impression on the reader. It wasn't really left open to interpretation because you had a pretty good idea of what was going to happen to Connie, yet, you never actually find out.
ReplyDeleteHow did the man know so much? It seems somewhat plausible that he could know the girl's friends and family, but how did he know what her family was doing right at that time?
ReplyDelete@Everyone- do you think an open ending is a good way to end the story?
ReplyDeleteMarie- I think that this story was definitely one of the least gothic stories we have read, but I did feel the uncanny element around Arnold Friend
ReplyDeleteDrew, I think the author ended the story the way he did just to add to the creepy affect the story has on the reader. By abruptly ending the story the author allows the reader to draw their own conclusions which can often be more haunting than if the author were to have a clear end to the story.
ReplyDeleteAmanda- I think he had control over her because she was scared. She couldn't think straight and was confused. And he was so sure of himself. He also threatened her. She seemed to see that no matter what she did the ending would be bad. If she went with him, ran away, call the police, etc.
ReplyDeleteDrew--the ending really confused me. In some ways it seemed to have a final result, which is that she went with him, but it left the reader with questions. The author left us with our imagination.
ReplyDeleteMelissa...Do you want to know how he knew...or does it help the scariness of the story to think that he just knows everything. What elements make the gothic story, THIS gothic story so intriguing?
ReplyDeleteMelissa- He didn't actually know, he was just saying stuff to persuade her, to get inside her head
ReplyDeleteAmaanda I dont think that an open-ending is a good way to end a story because you cannot see the authors thougts completley develop, i think if they take the time to write the story they might as well write a conclusion.
ReplyDelete@Melissa- He was her stalker. He followed her everywhere and it was his only purpose to find her. He possibly talked to neighbors or even had some way of listening to the family talk inside the house.
ReplyDeleteAmanda: What concludes her story is not as important as the effect that Arnold Friend has upon her and the psychological struggles she faces and must choose to respond to. I noticed music as a motif and wondered if maybe it related to the power Arnold had and the effect media has on youth. This I also related to the culture of rock and youth rebellion. What do you guys think of this?
ReplyDelete@ Brian C -- I would for sure agree with you, I think that in leaving it open ended it create sort of an element of uncanny. It leaves it up to us to decide how all ended up. It very much adds to the Gothic theme.
ReplyDelete@ amanda-- I think it is a great method for ending a gothic story, but not all kinds of stories.
ReplyDeleteHailey - I agree. When an author leaves a story hanging, they want you to decide what happens. This makes the story more personal which makes it more interesting to us.
ReplyDeleteAmanda, in the end Arnold got Connie to do what he wanted. And he got her to do what he wanted by flattering her enough so that she starts to put down her guard, then scaring her into doing what he wanted to.
ReplyDeleteMelissa- I think maybe the things he knew were part of the uncanny. Partially because everything he said was predictable, the usual events of a bbq. But then it was so creepy that he knew so much and said it so accurately, as though it was happening at that very moment. It makes you feel odd and a bit scared.
ReplyDeleteAmanda- I was just think the same thing! I personally think she took her to the middle of the woods or some place where no one could find her and murder her. Arnold Friend kept saying that they were going to go for a drive, it didn't sound like he was going to take her around the corner otherwise he would not have spent that much time to persuade her.
ReplyDeleteHailey -- That's true. I guess my question is more like did he know, or was he just making it up to make Connie feel more comfortable and less anxious (like Sydney said)?
ReplyDeleteWhat were some elements in this story that made it gothic?
ReplyDeleteAmanda,based on what I inferred about Arnold Friend I imagine he took the girl somewhere and killed her. I think he was able to convince her to come with him because she realized she was alone. If she didn't go with Arnold then I think she would have ultimately gotten in trouble with her family. I think by going with him she was accepting that she could never please her family and it would be better of if she went.
ReplyDeleteAmanda- for this kind of story it adds mystery to it which helps with the gothic elememts. It also gives discussion for what really happened in the end.
ReplyDelete@ Madi -- I think that in the end Connie does give in and go with him. It really frustrated me though that there was no definite ending, did that frustrate you?
ReplyDeleteWhat's interesting is that throughout the story, it discussed the freedom that Connie expressed. She went off to do what she wanted with who she wanted. In the end, she ends up doing what she didn't want to do, somewhere she did not want to go.
ReplyDeleteMarie-I think this story has a more personal and relatable theme of growing up. In the story, Connie transforms from a fun and innocent teenager into a flirtatious “adult” woman whose body and actions attract older men. However, like other gothic stories it shows the dangers of this idea as Connie finds herself in unsafe situations as a result of this growth.
ReplyDelete@Sydney- I think the fact that this man knew everything about her and was able to make her go with him made it gothic.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened that day in the kitchen when he attacks her? From your perspective...what happened?
ReplyDeleteBen s., But what if the author's intention was to leave the audience wondering and almost creating their own ending, though it's pretty clear what was going to happen to Connie.
ReplyDeleteI remember in past gothic stories i could not relate to many of the characters, however, in tis story its way easier to identify with the characters due to the fact that she is relativley the same age and into things that almost all teenagers like. So what do you think is more effective for a gothic story? Being able to relate to the characters or not?
ReplyDeleteSydney- there was definately "the uncanny". Lots of things were kind of creepy yet familiar at the same time. It also had the usual cut off ending. I also think that her sister was a sort of doppleganger. They were not the same though, they were opposites.
ReplyDeleteBridget: The author is possibly also commenting on appearance versus reality. Connie, in most ways, appeared to be completely self-absorbed yet she does sacrifice because she believes she will save her family. We all judge her from the beginning, yet her end leaves us connecting and wondering what lies beneath the facade that some possess.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if her family even cares that shes gone? During the story, it seem almost like her family did not even care for her. In movies where someone goes missing they obviously care, but until that person went missing it almost seems as if no one does.
ReplyDeleteSydney- there I saw the uncanny throughout this book which added to the gothic. Connie thought she could be safe at home and just have a day to herself, but when Arnold comes she loses that sense of security.
ReplyDeleteThe innercircle was talking about this a little but what do you guys think is the significance of the family both in this story on Connie and in gothic literature in general?
ReplyDeleteWhy is this an important element?
@ Sydney -- One element that I saw that made this story a gothic one was the element of the dysfunctional family, and how Connie cuts herself off from the family and visa versa.
ReplyDeleteDrew's question from the very top: I think the author left the story the way they did because it made you think and it made you really see that it was a gothic story because it didn't have a happy ending. It sort of made you think about all the possibilities that could have happened, without explaining it.
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine- Do you think she was self absorbed because she felt like her family did not care for her?
ReplyDeleteMadi- Good point. I think maybe the author did that to show the sudden change and reversal. To show that every action has a consequence.
ReplyDeleteAmanda- so it was just the "uncanny-ness" of it all?
ReplyDeleteHailey, from what I interpreted Arnold didn't physically attack her. I think that since he had been stalking her for so long he knew what to say so that she would be internally affected. Something that really sticks out to me is when he told Connie that her family would never do the same thing for her (when he was trying to convince her to leave and spare them). I think that was really the turning point in convincing Connie to leave with him.
ReplyDeleteSami I do think that the author was intending for the reader to create their own ending, and i think this can be an effective method sometimes, but i think that I would much rather have it all laid out on the table in a clear conclusion at the end
ReplyDeleteHailey, I think that in the kitchen she was overcome by fear to the point of pain.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you guys think about the inner circle's conversation about Arnold representing the devil?
ReplyDeleteDrew--it did frustrate me definitely because of cause and effect. I wanted to know the repercussions the man comming to her door and those events that took place were. But I also think that the genious in the story is that we don't know. The confusion is something that we can carry with us and will haunt us whenever we think of this story.
ReplyDeleteBen -- In our last discussion, we talked about how not connecting with the characters allows us to see the big picture better and go beyond just the characters. I've found that I don't really know what message Oates is trying to get across in this story, and it may be because I was so disturbed with the creepiness and mysteriousness going on in the story itself. So, basically, I think being able to relate to the characters is less effective thematically, but more effective in intruiging the reader.
ReplyDeleteIn the discussion, the discusser's place the "bad guy" as the devil.....thoughts?
ReplyDelete@ Hailey-- Frankly, i think that when she picked up the phone and was apparently paralyzed, probably by something the radio guy did, since he was talking about the "phone"
ReplyDeleteall the time. And he said he could come in if she touched the phone, so i think he did something to her, which is why her blouse becomes all sweaty and such.
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ReplyDelete@Sydney- yes indeed I think that plays a huge factor in it. But also the mysteriousness of the man and what he is going to do to her after she leaves with him.
ReplyDeleteBecause we are all of an age that relates to Connie, how do you think it comments on our emotions and insecurities and the effects of treating others and ourselves the way Connie does?
ReplyDeletePaul - The family is always so important because everyone has a family, whether it be biological family or a group of friends. Even if someone is alone, they came from somewhere. The point is everyone can relate to a family which makes it a good idea to bring up in literature.
ReplyDeleteBen-I think it depends on the goal the author is trying to accompolish. Oftentimes, I think the author was trying to make the reader dislike the characters in order to show how bad their actions are. This was true of The Lottery, A Rose for Emily and William Wilson. However, I think this author was trying to show the dangers that exist for young women and in order to understand these dangers and utheir reality I think you had to be able to relate to this story.
ReplyDeleteSydney- I hadn't thought about the concept before. But it makes sense. He tempts her. And she tries to run but he is too tricky for her and eventually she falls willingly into his arms.
ReplyDeleteDrew-- Or maybe it was Sydney who said this originally, anyways, I think that the fact that the family was dysfunctional made it more relatable, that made it less gothic because that's how most families are. Also that the teenage girl cuts herself off from the family is another thing that I think most girls in this room could relate with. I don't think that means these are elements of a gothic story.
ReplyDeleteHow is Connie's reaction different from what you would think someone getting abducted would be? Connie goes almost willingly, as some sort of heroic gesture. Do you think that she goes with Arnold Friend to save her family?
ReplyDeleteKristen, I think Connie goes out of an act to save her family in addition to making the realization that she is alone in her family. I think that since she already felt disconnected from her family it was easier for her to make the ultimate decision to leave in the end.
ReplyDelete@ Brian, good thought. I also think that he attacked her, but I'm unsure of the assault he committed on her...thoughts?
ReplyDeleteMelissa- But dont you find that being able to relate to the characters is more eery especially in gothic stories
ReplyDeleteKristen--I do think that she went with him to save her family, because in the end, what matters to her is that she will not see her mother again or her home. I think it's maybe the authors way of saying what he thinks is truly important in life---family.
ReplyDeleteAlex: I think Connie's self-absorbtion is typical. Yet at the base of it are many insecurities. Yes, these may stem from believing that she is not good enough for her family (which is obviously dysfunctional). Although she claims indifference to her mother's opinion of her, she cannot remain unaffected by the sense of disapproval. I also wonder if this causes her cathartic decision to "save" her family, out of guilt.
ReplyDeleteMary Katherine: I think that because he knew that she was so young and innocent, he knew that he could minipulate her and scare her into coming out of her house without him having to actually go in and get her. She did that to herself. So, in a way he was a smart killer, or whatever he did, because he made her change her mind and come to him.
ReplyDeleteSydney, I think that it could be a very plausible representation, because in many stories the devil appears as something that is appealing to whomever they are trying to corrupt. Like in Damn Yankee's the Devil appeared as a man in a suit with the proposition to make Joe a baseball star. Or here, the Devil is a handsome man who is fawning over Connie, and giving her all the attention that she craves.
ReplyDeleteSami- Do you think the author also wrote this gothic story for a leason for girls? This story show that a girl is at home alone and answers the door, it is a typical event that happens every day; however, it becomes twisted.
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine, because we are closer in age with Connie I think we tend to side with her and see her point of view. If an adult were to read the same stroy they might have a different perspective.
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine- I think that the way Connie acts is a reflection of the feeble and swayable minds of people of a certain age to this day. I definitely believe that the way rock is tied so deeply into the story it was meant to reflect the way our generations act.
ReplyDeleteMaryCatherine- I think it is a statement on how teenagers are very impressionable, and how we are constantly seeking acceptance
ReplyDelete@ Hailey-- I think the most likely action was rape. Which gives him a good reason to take her away, so she can't point fingers. And he did say he wanted to be her lover, and it would be a good explanation for her shock.
ReplyDeleteBen -- Yes, absolutely. Like I said, it really adds on to the eeriness. But thematically and big-picture-wise, I don't think it is beneficial to be able to relate to the characters because then you end up focusing on that, rather than the author's message.
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think that this storyrepresents the innocence and youth of a teenagers mind? Because Connie is easily manipulated by Arnold and at the same time she is trying to come of age quicker than she should by acting older than she really is.
ReplyDeleteLots of people seem to think that she did it to save her family. I think she did it because she saw no other choice. Not out of an intentional choice to save them. She saw that she could not call 911 or he would come in. She didn't stay because she saw that it was her fault and it wouldn't be fair to let her family get hurt. I think she may have done the same for anyone. She sacrificed herself not for her family specifically, but rather for every innocent person she may have put in harms way.
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine- When Arnold says that he will hurt her family do you think he actually would have? Or that she just sacrificed herself for nothing?
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine-I think it shows that teenagers are trying to find themselves. They are trying to establish independence and seperation from their families in order to establish their own idenitities and are also trying to experience independence and control over their own lives. I think it also shows how teenagers want to experience this through romantic relationships they previously percieved as being adult. They want to feel the power, control and strong emotions that come along with these relationships. They also want to conform and fit in, in order to create an identity they view as appealing based on what they see and experience with and from their peers.
ReplyDeleteKailyn just brought up a great point about what we assume. What in the story is archetypical? Is the author trying to say something about what we assume based on the world we live in?
ReplyDeleteAlex: I definately think that the author wrote this as a lesson for girls. It shows that if you don't stay confident, a crazy person can talk you out of doing the right thing and get you to come to them. They can mess with your head, so this shows us as experience that we don't have to actually experience, but can watch from outside.
ReplyDeleteHailey- I think it could have been physical abuse or just a sunday drive. His action and words showed that he did love her so it could have been many things that happened.
ReplyDeleteAlex, yes and I heard the inner circle talking about that the story was based on the killings of younger girls by a man in Tuscon, AZ. And I think he found his victims in the same way that Arnold was trying to get Connie. So the author was using those events as a warning to younger girls who stay home alone often.
ReplyDeletebridget- I think that she had the option to just do nothing, but the thought of her family being harmed caused her to give herself up for them.
ReplyDeleteBen- I think this definitely shows how teenagers desperately crave independence, freedom, control and identity. In order to achieve this they often make bad choices because they are innocent and have not experienced the world and become fully aware of the consequences.
ReplyDeleteSo, just to clarify: She opened the door and it was a screen door. But did it say if there was a another door behind the screen door? If so, why didn't she just close the door when she realised that Arnold was really creepy?
ReplyDeleteThe inner circle asked earlier what the significance of the numbers on the car were (33, 19, 17). The question went pretty much unanswered, except with a possible reference to a section in the bible. Other thoughts?
ReplyDelete@ Ben, I think that it could represent the innocence of a teenagers mind. However, in the end it seems that she sacrifices herself to save her family, so could it also represent the changing of the mindset that teens have?
ReplyDeleteI personnaly believe that the self sacrificing for people, her family or anyone, is nonsense. She was obviously an overbearingly selfish person. It seems more likely that whatever happened to her after she picked up the phone left her so shocked she could not function and either didn't think when she went with him, or couldn't think and siezed on his suggestion as the only possibility.
ReplyDeleteBen s, I think the story represents how much some people crave attention and how, like you said, they try and act older than they actually are.
ReplyDeleteSami- So what do you think a girl should if they where in this situation like Connie?
ReplyDeleteAre you sure that he loved her...or was it just a game to get her to follow him to the car?
ReplyDeleteAlexandria- He mentioned something about burning the house down. And then he would have hurt her family when they came home. Similarly, she could have just sat there inside the door and he said he wouldn't come in. But eventually they would come home and he may harm her family
ReplyDelete@Bridget: i think the parts that are archetypical is the fact that the teenage girl is self-absorbed and that she really does love her mother at the end. Also it is archetypical that the girl eventually gives in to what the man wants.
ReplyDeleteAlex: A lot of times on the news when they tell the many stories of people/ kids getting kidnapped, they talk about how the kidnapper manipulated them. Kidnappers today really say that they will hurt your family. But, I don't think he actually would or could have.
ReplyDeletePaul- Also this story is linked to a teenagers life because like the inner circle said she creis for her mother eventhough earlier she would talk back and avoid her mother as much as possible like a normal teen just another example of her youth
ReplyDeleteBrian- But do you think it was like in "A Good Man is Hard to Find," where the character's goodness showed when it really mattered?
ReplyDeleteAlex, she didn't close the other door, because she was afraid to lose sight of him and after a while she had gathered that he could probably break down the door.
ReplyDeleteAlex, she somehow felt entranced and captured by arnold. Mabey she was just curious but for whatever reason she felt she couldn't just leave.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of you. Through the gothic elements of appearance versus reality and catharsis, the author comments on the typical generation of youth. Throughout, music is mentioned and Arnold's way of speaking appears musical, both strong players in Connie's experience. Teenagers want to be told: "I want you," (8). Yet, maybe they are still too young to be able to decipher true love and truth itself. Also, we are still good, and mostly innocent and willing to sacrifice. Overall, we are not what we seem...?
ReplyDeleteAlexandria- A girl should make the decisions that keep her from being in this situation in the first place. This is easier said then done, but i ultimately think it is the only way to prevent these types of dangerous situations.
ReplyDeleteWhats interesting is that Arnold Friend seemed to talk to her about what her family was doing and how they weren't like her. They were at a BBQ and she was still at home. He said that they wouldn't miss her. He tried to entice her rebellious side.
ReplyDeleteHailey- I don't believe that he loved her. This just seems like more of a sick obsession that he has for her.
ReplyDeleteHaileyJ- Honestly I think it was just a plot to get her in the car, I do not think he actually liked her.
ReplyDeleteAlex, not start talking to the creep in the first place and call the police immediately.
ReplyDelete@ sydney-- No, i think that whatever happened with the phone just left her incapable of anything else.
ReplyDelete