As one of your options for responding to today's discussion, you are welcome to address questions and insights over Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery" via commenting on this post.
If you choose this option, I expect that you will...
1. Respond at least a few times by posting insightful comments or questions. Some have been posting once or twice; that is unsufficient and communicates to me that you might be off task.
2. Uphold our previously established blogging expectations with regard to using formal punctuation, grammar, and language.
3. Consider what is transpiring in the discussion; rather than simply typing, pause to listen to the inner circle at times and use that discussion, in addition to your own questions and comments, to guide your responses.
Feedback from our first couple to keep in mind:
1. Keep addressing your questions and responses to individuals when one individual applies, i.e. "Fred Flinstone, ..."
2. Develop your ideas: so what? How so? What makes you say that? As you develop them, refer back to specific passages that inspired your thinking. Go beyond one sentence to really explain your ideas.
3. Keep practicing effective writing skills: avoid prefacing your argument with phrases like "I think" and "I believe"; avoid empty diction like "things" and "bad"; avoid personal pronouns where unnecessary.
Happy posting.
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Just wondering, around when was this story supposed to take place?
ReplyDeleteThis tradition seems to evoke selfishness. The children didn't mourn for their mother, they were relieved for themselves; do you feel the same way?
ReplyDeleteWhy did other villages go against it? Did they see that it was inhumane and that they shouldn't do it? What made villages that kept the tradition overlook humanity values?
ReplyDeleteWhy do the people continue to support this strange tradition considering the personal risk and fact that it appears useless?
ReplyDeleteI noticed that the tone of this story started much more bright than the others, and that it decieved the reader. Why do yall think that the author did this?
ReplyDeleteShirley Jackson stsarts the story off with a very light and "happy" setting ("clear and sunny, with the fresh warmth of a fall summer day; the flowers were blooming profusly and the grass with richly green" Jackson) This is very different from the ominous and dark settings of the Edgar Allan Poe stories. Why do you think this is?
ReplyDeleteDoes the lottery box signify something beyond wealth? Why do the towns people insist on keeping it?
ReplyDeleteHow are the roles of men, women and children seen in this story?
ReplyDeleteIs there a host, guest and house in this story? If so, who?
Melissa, I would think that the story took place during the late 1700's or early 1800's. But that's just a guess based on the way people acted.
ReplyDeleteMelissa- I talked to my dad about this story last night and I asked the same thing. He said that sometimes the lack of time frame is completely on purpose. I think that it might either be to see where you place the story, to make it your own in a sense, or to show that a story like this could in reality be applied to any time period.
ReplyDeleteI have a question that I would like to pose to everyone, it is "what was Jackson's intent by writing this piece of literature?"
ReplyDeleteKailyn:
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, I was looking at an analysis of this story and what Jackson's purpose of writing this was and it said Jackson uses irony and comedy to suggest an underlying evil, hypocrisy, and weakness of human kind. So I think that really ties into that feeling of selfishness you mentioned.
Paul- I think it is because, as we see repeated in a lot of the cultures we've explored, people are afraid to break tradition, its a fear of "what if"
ReplyDeleteOne of my thoughts was regarding the title of the piece in reference to its plot. "The Lottery" has a positive connotation in our society whereas it is negative in the story. How does this relate to Gothic criticism and the comparison between appearances and realities? Also, why does Jackson choose to entitle such a barbaric tradition as she does? Is it a comment on society and what we value?
ReplyDeleteGrant-I think that some people thought this was inhumane because they lost someone to the lottery. Everyone knew what would happen, but not many went against it until they or their family member got picked to die. As for the village keeping the tradition this was what they always did and doing something new probably frightened some in the village.
ReplyDeleteOh and Drew, that previous post of mine applies to your question too!
ReplyDeleteMelissa-I dont think it matters when the story took place. I think the fact that this is not mentioned shows the fact that people are always capable of crazy, barbaric things espeacially when isolation and community spirit come into play.
ReplyDeleteKailyn-Im not sure if it was selfishness so much as it was just this seems to be an ingrained part of the community and people are not close in this way.
It looked like the author tried to mask the morbidness of the subject with a warm opening and a presence of ease and peacefulness when the lottery took place. I saw this as interesting...maybe this is to further imply this as a standard tradition for the people.
ReplyDeleteKelsey, I think that change is a scary thing and I believe that Jackson is saying that people don't want to change - she made this story extreme and seemingly crazy to emphasis this point
ReplyDeleteI believe that shirly Jackson decided to depict the scenery as she did to be a bit ironic almost. Also it was to show how this was such an average day. this was not unordinary. It was a bit of a mascarade to hide the fear within the town.
ReplyDeleteHaley- That is so interesting that you found that, it explains a lot about the story. What do you think is the reason he uses irony and comedy to portray this?
ReplyDeleteIn past gothic stories we read, the setting was dark, dull setting that did not evoke any happy thoughts. In "The Lottery," the setting contrasted greatly. It was described as sunny and warm, which seemed unique, esspecially when compared to Poe's.
ReplyDelete@paula20012-- They are are afraid. It has happened for a long time, and they must see a reason for it. Like the ancient aztecs, sacrificing people to the gods, these people have a reason for it. It is probably a bad reason, and no excuse for murder, yet theyare afraid of change, and of what could happen if the lottery stops.
ReplyDeletePaul, then how would you define selfishness? They were all concernecd for themselves, none was concerned for their neighbors - that conisides with my definition of slefishness; but maybe you define it differently
ReplyDeleteAlly -- That is very interesting, and I can see why this might be. When I was reading the story, I was not really thinking of modern day, but not too far in the past. I'm sure many people imagined differently.
ReplyDeleteKailyn: So basically the fear of change compells to entire plot. Fear seems to be the driving force in a lot of literature.
ReplyDeletePaul-I also think that the reason the tradition continued was not only because people feared to break the pattern but also because they partially enjoyed the power that they possessed even when partaking in something so violent. Although the town seems ordered and neat, the poeople are unsettled and controlled by Mr. Summers, eager to control anything at all.
ReplyDeleteI think that one of the purposes of keeping this lottery going was that the villagers were afraid of what would happen if they stopped this tradition. Especially if since they have started the tradition the crops have been growing well, they don't want to break the tradition and have the crops not grow well. Like Kayln said, their selfishness overcame their sense of logic and humaneness.
ReplyDeleteSydney-I definitely think the author was trying to surprise the reader and create suspense and confusion to make the story and it's ending more suprising and intriguing. However, I also think it was meant to show the irony of the situation as well as the fact that people were not too concerned.
ReplyDeleteKelsey- I like the wording you used, "a masquarade to hide the fear within the town." why do you think they felt they needed to "hide the fear?"
ReplyDeleteMadi, I think that that contrast puts a much greater emphasis on the horror of the situation.
ReplyDeletePaul- But why weren't the people concerned? How did this come to be an "ordinary day" type thing?
ReplyDeletePaul- A lot of times people follow traditions blindly just because they are ingrained into their society. Maybe the author was trying to show people how to become more free and unique and rebel. Although it seems useless their are alot of traditions in our society that could be considered useless and only for a materialistic society
ReplyDeleteI don't think they are so much afraid of what happens, but why would they change it. They have always done it and nothing has ever seemed wrong. It seems like the saying if it isn't broken don't fix it. Why would they change it if they have no reason to? They obviously don't see it as a murder or a bad thing.
ReplyDeleteSydney-- Maybe the author was trying to make as big of a contrast as she could. If this story began like some of Poe's stories that we have read, you would almost expect to see a disturbing ending. However, there is another layer to this story because this is the absolute last thing you would expect to happen after reading the first few paragraphs. Not only is it disturbing on it's own, but in the context of this "happy setting", I think it surprises the reader even more.
ReplyDeleteSydney:
ReplyDeleteI think that the reason Jackson uses comedy and irony to tell this story is because she is implying that underneath one's outward congeniality, there may be lurking a pure evil. The idea that what you see is not what you get kind of.
Meg- The duties between men and women were very different. The men were considered "head of the house", and they were always the first option for who draws a slip from the box. An example of this is when Mrs. Dunbar says she was going to draw the slip, Mr.Summers checks just to make sure that no male in the family can draw it.
ReplyDeleteI found it interesting that there was no verbal tension until someone was picked in the drawing. Was there little verbal tension to begin with because of the low odds that you in particular got picked?
ReplyDeleteSydney: I am not really sure. Perhaps fear was not socially acceptable. It shows weakness and that seems like it would be frowned upon in this town.
ReplyDeleteKelsey, it sure does. Why? Why is fear a major character in a lot of liturature, is that true in life?
ReplyDelete@ Madi. I think that this mood is created to evoke a sense of normality, and to show that it is just like any other day. I think that Jackson did this to make it sound usual and not as if it were something unusually dark, even though it really is. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think that the irony of the woman who let her fear show and who questioned the tradition was meant to tell us something?
ReplyDeleteSydney- They seemed to need to hide their fear for fear of other people's thoughts and reactions. Old Man Warner had been involved his whole life and they didn't want to bash traditions. They felt they had to show respect for the lottery, and not develope any new traditions. They noticed how they disrespected other towns for chosing to discontinue the lottery and so they did not want to be disrespected along with that.
ReplyDeleteKailyn-I think you are definitely right that their behavior would appear to be selfish. However I dont think they were even motivated by selfishness, it didnt even seem like they were so concerned about themselves even they just seemed to respect and accept this bizzare tradition and the fate of he who got it.
ReplyDeleteIs there any significance that Old Man Watson has been in the lottery 77 times?
ReplyDeleteI was wondering what you guys thought a theme of the story was, because I saw hypocrisy as a big theme. For example, the way Ms. Delacroix is joking about her tardiness with one of her friends ,Mrs. Hutchinson, and then when she ‘wins the lottery’ Ms. Delacroix forgets the friendship they share and selects an especially large rock to stone her with.
ReplyDeleteKailyn -- I think the lottery kind of displays human nature and indeed selfishness. Everyone was so nonchalant and somewhat excited for the lottery when they were first gathering, displaying human interest in seeing pain or suffering (which reminds me of the movie "Untraceable"). When the papers were being drawn, there was some anxiousness, both in the nervous and excited sense. Then when the Hutchinsons were chosen, there was relief for everyone, except the Hutchinsons, who were in panic.
ReplyDeleteThese gothic storries continue to find themselves centered in the fall or at least the ominous onset of fall, do the authors find this as such a large sign or is it just a coincidence
ReplyDeleteGrant-I think that the people didn't think much of getting picked until they actually got picked. Before that the people were nervous, but most never doubted the system they always thought that someone else besides them or their family would die. Until their names were drawn they seemed oblivious to what the outcome atcually is.
ReplyDeleteAlly and Sydney: Maybe Jackson chose to introduce the setting and characters in such a nonchalant way so as to emphasize the possibility of such barbarism in each one of us. In keeping with the gothic unit, each aspect may be a comment on the pieces of the human being: the good, bad, and the effects of imbalance.
ReplyDeleteKelsey- I wonder why weakness would be frowned upon? I totally agree with what you're saying and it seems strange that something that is part of human nature, something that everyone has, would be something that would be frowned upon, you know?
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine- in response to what you said about power: We read an article last year in history that was about the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Basically some tourists heard about a hot dinner place to visit, so they went there. When they got there they saw people being pulled behind a curtain by big hefty guys. They didn't know what happened behind the curtain until their names were called. When the tourists were called they went behind the border and essentially got to pick how they were abused. The funny thing is they tipped the guys for beating them up and came out happy. We discussed that this was because they had some form of power (in choosing) during a time when the Soviets controled everything. So anyways, this relates to the Lottery because, as you were saying, they were eager to control anything at all.
ReplyDeleteBrian F.-I agree that it didn't really seem wrong to them because it was solely tradition and it seemed like it wasn't a bad thing because they've been doing it for several years. And they would have thought it was strange to discontinue it.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the conversation in the circle, I just wanted to say it seems pretty much impossible to rig the lottery. I think this fact is one of the most interesting things about the story, the people have come to accept this personal risk even though any of them could be victimized.
ReplyDeletePaul, I understand what you are saying, and I would agree.. to an extent. I don't think that they were motivated, per sa by selfishness, but I do believe that this murder forced them to be selfish
ReplyDeleteKailyn: fear is absolutly a driver in life. Literature reflects the world around it and we live in a world run by fear.
ReplyDeleteDrew- That's a great point and I totally agree. They wanted to express how mundane it is to have the lottery. It's something they are used to, just like having the sun shine and the grass be green.
ReplyDeleteGrant, I have been wondering the same thing. The other villages may have overcome their cultural anxieteies while this village hasn't. For example, why do people fear black cats. It is just tradition.
ReplyDeleteDrew:
ReplyDeleteI think that Jackson wrote this story to show the Lottery as being something kind of similar to a square dance, or a fesitivty of a town. Soemthing that is light and like a happy social event that builds in anticipation towards who will be the winner. Jackson may be suggesting that many individuals are not strong enough to confront their disapproval, for fear of being rejected by society. Instead they continue to sacrifice their happiness, for the sake of others.
Melissa, great point! It is a slightly depressing view of human nature, isn't it though... but is it bad to yearn to see human pain, and in the end; to be curious.
ReplyDeleteGrant-- Yes I think so, you see that the woman who got picked had no objections until it was final that she was the one who won the lottery. However, I would consider this to be a weakness of the character of the people in that village. I think that everyone knows it is wrong at some level, but because the odds are so low, no one speaks out against it. Is it the responsibility of the people to fight injustice, regardless of whether or not it effects them? Or are the only people that should be fighting the battle the ones who are victims of the injustice?
ReplyDeleteMaryCatherine- that's a good thought. Like he was showing us how no matter how immaculate something or someone can appear on the outside, there is always an underlying evil. what do you think causes this underlying evil?
ReplyDelete@ sarah-- I see it so. it means that he has been very lucky, and never gotten the dot, --or, it means his entire family has been killed except him. Either way, i believe it influences his view of the lottery, such as believing "i've been through it 77 years and haven't complained, it is not bad, man up and take it!"
ReplyDeleteSydney- Yes, it is an irony. It seemed to me that at the beginging of the story, she didnt seem bothered by the lottery, but when she got picked she changed and saw how inhumane and crazy this tradition really was.
ReplyDeleteDo you think if anybody did actually contest to the lottery that they would actually be listened to or would they just simply be ignored? I bet people would discredit them because of the long-history of the tradition
ReplyDeleteSydney-In society, fear is often thought of as a sign of weakness. This is because people often think people who are afraid are not as strong because of their fear and their succeptibility to it. It is often thought that if you are afraid and emmotional their are something wrong with you.
ReplyDeletePeople often use this to manipulate people to do things such as through peer pressure.
Kelsey, for sure ... and yet all of liturature (mostly) portrays this fear as being a bad thing - is it truly?
ReplyDeleteSydney: I think that weakness is frowned upon in society outside of literature. Has anyone ever been compfortable with being weak in any aspect of their lives? I think that in the society in this book weakness in simply repremanded much more and therefore the citizens hide their fear and sadness and all other things weak.
ReplyDeleteIs it a coincidence that the oldest man of the village was the one to be the greatest opposer of abolishing of the lottery, or was it because he was simply old and he didn't care if he was picked or not?
ReplyDeleteMary Cathrine-- I think you bring up an excellent point. It might be that the author introduces all of the characters in such a way that you begin to make connections between them and yourself, that you begin to relate to them on a personal level. Then, as you see what they all take part of, you begin to question your own morals and ability to challenge the system if necessary.
ReplyDeleteIt is very ironic that the lottery results in death by stones, when in our society, we hear the word lottery and think about the fact that someone recieves millions of dollars for guessing a bunch of numbers correctly.
ReplyDeleteIt's not like this is the only story that talks about sacrifice. For instance, the mayans would sacrifice people all the time for loosing ball games and for the purpose of harvest as well.
ReplyDeleteMeg and MaryCatherine- your conversation is very interesting, about how people can be tricked into being controlled if they feel they can control one aspect of it. Why do yall think that people are so easily influenced like this?
ReplyDeleteMeg- I would definitely agree with you about the eagerness to "Control something" when you can control nothing. I think that it is human nature to want to control things and especially things that involve you to some extent.
ReplyDeleteWhat role does tradition play in this?
ReplyDeleteBecause the box after so many years is "Faded and stained" just as the villagers' view of reality has become tainted and pitiful. An intense fear of change among the people is obvious. And even though the box is in such a terrible state the villagers don't want a new box because they don't want to upset tradition. So is tradition the main cause of this gruesome "game"?
Madi, That is really interesting... I never really thought of that; but it is really ironic... Why do you think Jackson did that?
ReplyDeleteWhat did everyone notice about gender roles in this story? The inner circle is starting to begin an interesting conversation
ReplyDeleteKailyn: Absolutely not. Fear is basically the sense to know that something is wrong. If there was no fear then there would be no sense in the world. After all, fear is the thing that makes us drive on the correct side of the road.
ReplyDeleteGrant -- The oldest man supported the lottery so much because it had been a tradition in his life for so long.
ReplyDeleteMelissa: I also noticed that after the townspeople had drawn, they called out possible names as though there were some who they believed "deserved" this fate. How does this relate to the imbalance of the anima persona and shadow? Also, even Mrs. Hutchinson's son is turned against her. I thought this was a fairly blatant presentation of this imbalance and its consequences. Do you think this is accurate?
ReplyDeleteBen- I believe if alot of people suddenly contested to the lottery, they would be listened to, like the other villages. However, if one person stood up they would be ignored, like Mrs. Dunbar screaminng "this is not right! It isnt fair!"
ReplyDeleteBen-It seems like a couple people did bring up the fact that other towns had abandoned the lottery in order to show that they should as well. However, the oldest man in the town appeared to be very much against this and I think this would show the fact that the elders of the town were against it. However, I think as the elders of the town die and the youth become the leaders maybe this tradition will be abandoned...
ReplyDeleteBen, If someone wanted to contest the lottery, they would probubly just move to a town that doesn't do the lottery any more, or they would try and get others on their side. The scarry thought is that the people enjoy killing each other once a year and don't want to stop.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you guys think the author chose stoning as the way the people were killed? Was it because it was a way for the whole town to be involved or was just because of tradition?
ReplyDeleteBen: I think that if someone had a problem with the lottery then they would have been ignored because the society had written this tradition into everyday life, it would be like taking a very regular action that we take part in without question and saying that we should stop doing it. For example, what if someone thought that we should stop going to school? It would seem like an insane idea just because we are so accustomed to doing it day after day.
ReplyDeleteAlly C- You bring a good point, and I think that people from both sides (ones being affected and unaffected) should be the ones to deal with injustice. The affected ones should testify about the pain they go through to sway the unaffected ones who are usually the ones who have the power over the affected ones.
ReplyDeletebens2012-I think that the people wouldn't care if someone contested the lottery. Even when Mrs. Huctchinson didn't agree with the lottery pick they still killed her. If multiple people thought that the lottery was bad it could change the way the village thinks but overall it doesn't seem like people care either way about the lottery.
ReplyDeletePaul- The tradition has been around for numberous generations right? So I'm sure when the youth become elders this tradtion will carry on just like it has with the other generations
ReplyDeleteBrian F.- It was probably a tradition because it has been around for several years, and they weren't up for changing tradition.
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine-I dont think when they were calling out the names they were referring to people they thought deserved it. I think this was done simply because their were few families in the town and they were just calling out well known families.
ReplyDeleteWould the older people in the village be mad about being picked even though they have seen so many die by this system?
ReplyDeleteIn relation to the inner circle, i disagree with their thought of the story being sexist. The men drew, because they are traditionally regarded as the head of the family, even today when sexism is practically illegal, -although still prcticed by bigots- and then they treated the husband or wife who lost the same. the idea of sexism in the lottery is foolish, but in normal life, it seems like a town in the old west, where men were valued more, yes, but , like the lottery, it was more tradition than sexism.
ReplyDeleteKelsey, ha ha - you are right... even though that is not how I think that majority see fear. It alost seems that the people in this story don't have enough fear then; if they were more fearfull purhaps this bizarre tradition would be more scorned. Perhaps, Jackson is emphasizing the importance of fear. (weird concept)
ReplyDeleteKelsey- Yes that's a good point. Do you think the reason that more brutal punishment for weakness in this story is used to slap us all in the face with how our pride can sometimes cloud our view of reality?
ReplyDeleteBrian- I think that the author chose this way to kill them because he was trying to create the sentiment of everyone participating. Everyone gathers to witness it. Everyone draws a slip. Everyone helps to kill, which can be acheived by stoning.
ReplyDeleteBrian- The fact that jackson uses stoning as the wat of acrifice could show the ancient roots of the tradition, also, it could also show that this story was set in wayyy older times
ReplyDeleteBen-Maybe, but it seems like if other towns were giving up this tradition and even some in the town were bringing this up, the culture might be changing.
ReplyDeleteBrian- I believe Shirley Jackson choose death by stoning becuase it shows that the villagers are willing to watch their family and friends die, and help kill them as well. It shows their blind obediance to this tradition.
ReplyDeleteSydney: People seek connection and community, something which brings us together. This is portrayed in the town's unity as a single movement. However, there must be a balance of individuals and groups. When people feel they are suppressed or weakened or have lost their individual value, they seek something of which to be in charge. Also, the imbalance of what is good in man and what is bad leads to neuroses such as 'the lottery'.
ReplyDeleteHaley- I think that tradition plays a huge part in this "game". From what we can tell this has been going on for a long time. Also, they seemed to believe that it would help with the harvest, and if it seems to help the people would probably be more likely to keep it as a tradition.
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine -- It was very strange how there was only relief and no grief for Mrs. Hutchinson, even in the family. There definitely was an impractical reaction for the son to his mother. I think this was done on purpose, kind of in a satire way.
ReplyDeleteGrant-- When I think of this, I think of the Civil Rights Movement. The fact that both sides were represented in this fight (affected and unaffected) is proof that something was going very wrong. Obviously, if something is corrupt in the system and you get the brunt end of it, you will protest. But if others get involved that are not negatively effected, it shows that change needs to happen.
ReplyDeleteKailyn: I think you are right. Perhaps this story is not emphasising the consequense of fear, but the consequenses of the lack of it.
ReplyDeleteBrain F, Stoning is a very simple yet primative way of killing someone. The author may have just been trying to show us the barbareic nature of the village.
ReplyDeleteBrian C.- I think the older people of the village would be upset about being picked, but they wouldn't be upset about it because they'd seen so many die in the system. I think inside they would accept that they were still a part of the lottery and that they needed to contribute to the tradition they went through all their lives.
ReplyDeleteAre coward and fear the same thing? because I believe these people were cowards, not fearful.
ReplyDeleteThe inner circle mentioned cultural anxieties of change, but what other cultural anxieties are in this town?
ReplyDeleteKelsey, hmm... I think you are right too. This concept seems weird at first glance; but it makes sense.
ReplyDeleteResponding to the inner circle's disscussion, they chose to make the box black because black is a morbid color. However, over time, it has been worn to the original wood, which shows it no longer is regarded so morbidly amoung the town.
ReplyDeleteBen M- This reminds me of Lord of the Flies and how the author uses the spears and the pig to show how savage the human nature is. Also, I think stoning relates to the old times so it shows the primitiveness of it all.
ReplyDeleteKailyn: In response to your question (a long time ago :) I think that in some cases fear can be a good thing. Take the quote "Fear is a great motivator." Look at what happened after 9-11. Our country better prepared for a possible future attack ( the airports; i.e.) So I think that occasionally fear can be a good thing.
ReplyDeleteShirley Jackson wrote this story in 1948 at the end of World War 2 and the onset of the spread of the red and the cold war. Is this a message from Jackson to show that communism should end its spread just like th lottery? It might be stretching it but it might just be right?
ReplyDeleteMary Catherine-It is interesting that you brought up community as you would think that this would be important to them. However, I would think in a community the people would value eachother more especially since it seems to be such a small interconnected community. This is one of the most interesting things about this story.
ReplyDelete