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We have talked a lot about how the setting reflects the main character. The narrator develops and changes each time his setting changes. For example, he is most unstable at the end when he is moving constantly and does not have a good home. What other homes of his affected his personality?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that the narrator kept his name anonymous at the beginning of the story?
ReplyDeleteIt is pretty clear that Jungian's shadow is present in this story. However, considering everything, was William Wilson the narrator the "duplicate's" shadow, or was it the other way around?
ReplyDeleteMelissa- That is a tricky one because I think that William Wilson was a reflection of the narrator, not the other way around. But, he was definately a better reflection of the narrator, not a worse one.
ReplyDeleteI think Poe spen a lot of time describing the scenes and settings in order to really set the mood and to let his audience get a better idea of what was going on and how Wilson saw things.
ReplyDeleteMelissa-The way I understood the story, it seemed that the "duplicate" was William Wilson's shadow, or at least that was how it seemed to the narrator. He felt like the "duplicate" was following him around, not the other way around. But it is possible that it only seemed that way because he was the narrator, it could have seemed compltetly different if the "duplicate" was the narrator.
ReplyDeleteMelissa, I think that it is the other way around, but was this man a being of his imagination; or was he real? I ask this since no one else seems to noctive their connection - which seems odd since they are the same.
ReplyDeleteMarie- I think it was probably to build the identity of the other person, and then relate that person, his "shadow" to himself, to make the reader make connections instead of slapping us in the face with it
ReplyDeleteMarieP- I was wondering the same thing. Do you think it was because he didn't want anyone else to come back and catch him for all the gambling he did? Or do you think that he just didn't like his name? I mean I'm thinking about changing my middle name because I despise it so much.
ReplyDeleteIn response to the inner circle question about why they spent so much time describing the setting, I think it goes back to the themes of gothic writing. Poe was probably trying to show how the setting reflected upon the narrator, how they mirrored eachother like we learned about the host and their home.
ReplyDeleteGrant- I agree with that very much. William could be described as someones who's trapped both by unseen walls by his shadow and by the physical gates that cut him off from the rest of the town in school.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Wilson was the narrator's doppelganger, just as Madeline was Usher's doppelganger. So, it seems that in Poe's stories, an alter ego is necessary.
ReplyDeleteKailyn- I think that he wrote the other William as a real person, to amplify the effect of how this other side of him is very real and tangible
ReplyDeletePiggybacking of Kristens's comments about the twins maybe poe had a twin that could have passed away of just a twin in general. The twin passing away could have an impact on his depressing tone in these stories
ReplyDeleteWhat was this duplicate's motive? He was ruining Williams life, and yet simulataneously ruining his own. It is almost as if he was trying to commit a skewed suicide, why?
ReplyDeleteI am wondering why the William Wilson who narrates the story is so extremely bothered by his "shadow". I can understand it to an extent, I mean everyone wants their own identity but I think he definitely went overboard... Any ideas?
ReplyDeletePoe had a lot of stories including twins...maybe this is an example of the shadow, especially in William Wilson, because his supposed twin was his opposite, evil side.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that this story is a lot like Shakespeare's Macbeth because in that story, Macbeth turns out to be his own worst enemy by becoming a murderer. The same idea is seen in William Wilson.
ReplyDeleteKailyn -- That is a good question. It seemed like people noticed Wilson, but it is unclear whether they noticed two, or just one...
ReplyDeleteAlex, Marie, and Sydney- I don't think that he kept his name annonymous to keep from getting caught or because he didnt like it. I think that Sydney's explaination is really good. He wants to allow the readers to identify with William Wilson. I also think that perhaps it was because he slayed himself. So, his name, his true original name that we do not know, is gone. In killing himself, he killed the name, because a name represents a person.
ReplyDeleteSydney, that is a good point. but then why does no one else notice the similarities between the two?
ReplyDeleteMarie-I think the fact that he kept his name a secret shows his fear of himself as well as the shame of his behavior. The paper is “pure” and he is not.
ReplyDeleteMelissa-I dont think that one necessarily is the shadow of the other. I think they represent two parts, the real evil him and the one that has somewhat been surpressed.
Katie- Would you extend your assumption that an alter ego is necessary in Poe's writing to assuming that an alter ego is necessary in all gothic literature? or do you think it is unique to Poe?
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think that all Poe's stories or other gothic stories use people's shadows and twins to enhance the story, or is it just in these two stories that the duplicates appear?
ReplyDeleteAlly...maybe he was bothered by his shadow because Wilson was trying to make his way and be himself and all he saw was someone trying to be like him.
ReplyDeleteBrianC- Do you think the fake William Wilson liked the real William's life that he wanted to have the same things that William had? However, end the story after he has killed the real William, that the fake William he too will lose part of himself since he's been trying (practially all of his life) to be the real William Wilson.
ReplyDeleteAlly- I think it is because it was not so much a person who immitates them and is better than him. It is everything he hates/fears/etc in himself. Imagine everything you hate or fear most being in one person who is always shadowing over you. That's a lot to handle. Or, William Wilson isn't so much everything he hates/fears but rather brings out everything in the narrator that he hates and fears. If one person managed to bring out all of your worst qualities.
ReplyDeleteMarie- I believe that the narrator hesitates to use his name becuase he feels like he cannot live up to it. I agree with Alex that the narrator despises his name due to his actions, but he ended up killing the other half of himself. So maybe he feels like he lost half himself, and cannot give himself the honor of a full name.
ReplyDeleteI have a more technical question. It becomes evident, at the end, that by killing his "twin" William Wilson has killed himself, and yet he narrarates this downfall - how can that be?
ReplyDeleteKailyn -- As the Wilson with the better judgment, the "duplicate's" motive was to stop his shadow (the narrator) from doing foolish and unmoral things. This is why I am still unsure who was the shadow and who was the actual person.
ReplyDeleteAlex: I feel like in this story the narrator is very confused about what his true identity is because he has two sides to his personality. So that could be the reason why.
ReplyDeleteGrant I agree.. Or maybe in addition to that, he saw (whether it was true or not) that the other William WIlson was trying to be like him and was better at it, which, if that was the case, would really bug me.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the story, the last sentence says that by murdering William, he murderes himself. Which poses the question: Do you think suppressing your subconcious is healthy?
ReplyDeleteKailyn...I think what he meant by killing himself was that by killing off his bad side he also killed off his personality because he had nothing to balance himself out
ReplyDeleteAlexandriab- I agree with that the fake William Wilson wanted what the real one had. He seemed almost jelous of the real William Wilson, but to kill him does mean he is killing part of himself which doesn't give him all what the real William had.
ReplyDeleteKailyn- I think that in murdering William Wilson it was more symbolic of murdering himself. He did not literally die.
ReplyDeleteKailyn- People do notice the similarities, like when the older students thought they were brothers? it says,"...mere accident of our having entered the school upon the same day, which set afloat the notion that we were brothers, among the senior classes in the academy...but assuredly if we had been brothers we must have been twins..."
ReplyDeleteWhy do you guys think Poe made the non-narrator william wilson unable to speak loudly and really good at imitating others?
ReplyDeleteKailyn - maybe Wilson was driven to compete, even if it was against himself. He was never happy with himself, so he was always competing to be the best, at any cost.
ReplyDeleteMelissa, hmm... that makes sense, and yet I never thought of it that way - and yet in not being foolish and immoral he was miserable; I wonder what Poe was trying to say about human nature.
ReplyDeletePoe uses the alter-ego to show an unmistakeable psychological condition, he explains that how ever far away Wilson tries to get from his alter-ego it is always following him. Therefore, it must be a condition.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Wilson may be more than the narrator's doppleganger, it may be him himself. It is an arguement of his conciouse that does not manifest beyond his mind for he argues as if it is with his cumpolsatory side. That does not make him crazy though. We all argue internally with our own William Wilson.
ReplyDeleteGrant: I agree. According to everything we have learned, we need both sides of our personality to survive, the good and the bad. When that delicate balance is altered, things go wrong.
ReplyDeleteBrian-Poe definitely uses the names in order to show the complexities of people and the many different sides of individuals and human physchology. Similarly to what Hayley is saying he wants to show that everyone is capable of badness and evil and that this is simply part of being human but this side is suppressed by society to some extent, some it only exists on the inside. This is what the house symbolizes I think, the house is a place of evil where evil takes place.
ReplyDeleteBridget, I would really hate to have one person that embodies all that I hate. But I can't help but wondering if William Wilson (Narrator) is conjuring these things up, because no one else seems to see any similarities.
ReplyDeleteBridget- I agree, I saw it as him overcoming the undesired part of himself, of him finally being able to suppress the darker wants and needs that he could not control before
ReplyDeleteGrant -- How was the Wilson that was killed the bad side of William Wilson? Didn't it seem like the narrator was more the evil part?
ReplyDeleteEveryone: So by not using his name, is he in a way demeaning himself as a human being?
ReplyDeleteMarieP- I agree with the statement made that Macbeth is similar to William Wilson. Macbeth wanted to be the King and he did everthing that he could in order to achieve his goal - thus it consumed him. William Wilson, too was consumed by wanting to become William Wilson, he was always one step ahead of the real William Wilson and he then by taking this name he killed the name of which he was given to become something that he was not.
ReplyDeleteBen- Why does he have to be crazy? I do not understand why internal struggle represents insanity.
ReplyDeleteBrian...maybe it was because the non-narrating William Wilson was the opposite and the narrating Wilson spoke loudly and was good at imitating people
ReplyDeleteBrian- I meant to bring that up. The way William Wilson cannot speak loudly is a great point. I think that William Wilson really is the narrators subconcious. He steps in to stop the narrator from doing bad and makes him feel guilty. The subconcious can only do so much, it cannot yell, only speak softly. It is the voice in the back of your head, soft, yet always there.
ReplyDeleteKailyn- The "twin" was not the narrators excact copy just in flesh and blood, he was also almost like another half in spirit of the narrator. As Melissa first mentioned, William Wilson is the narrators shadow, the dark side of himself, only flesh and blood. So by killing his "twin" he kills half of himself.
ReplyDeleteI think that everyone has a good point about his non - literal death, but to me being "dead to the world, to heaven and to Hope!" isn't just symbolic
ReplyDeleteKatie-- I think you need to live with a blend of the two. By definition, "alter ego" means two different things. I don't think it's healthy to live to either extreme of yourself, whatever those two opposites might be. You can't supress one and elevate the other, you have to be able to balance it all.
ReplyDeleteKailyn -- Might it have been that he was miserable because his counterpart (the narrator) was dominating and causing a lot of mess for them both?
ReplyDeleteGrant-I agree with Meelissa that Wilson was the evil part. He was obviously extremely neurotic and let the evil, paranoia and fear within him take over. Thus the evil ultimately emerged victorious over him which is why I believe he was ashamed and did not want to use his own name in the story.
ReplyDeleteThinking about everyone's comments about tiwns, I remember reading that Poe had a brother who died early and a sister who later wne tinsane. It is possible that he kind of associated himself with these absent siblings, and rojected that into his stories through twins, thinking about himself as losing someone so close to him and so essential in his childhood.
ReplyDeleteWilliam Wilson is miserable and yet chillingly "good" must one have evil in thier life to be happy? Is this what Poe is suggesting?
ReplyDeleteMelissa-you're probably right...I just saw in my mind that the "shadow" of Wilson was bad because he may have found his "evil twin"...but the narrating Wilson could have very well been the evil twin himself.
ReplyDeleteI saw a lot of examples of escapism in this text, from changing his schools to alcohol and gambling. I think this was him trying to run away from what he doesn't like in himself, only to realize that those kinds of things will always follow you
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think Wilson had good side to him or was he simply evil? Also what would be the symbolism of this?
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Poe was happy writing such dark novels and stories because i heard that he died alone due to depression and alcholism were these dark stories really that imposrtant to tell the public or did they consume him and make him miserable almost like he was living in them much like what i heard about Heath Ledger and the joker, or also did poe himself have an alter ego that made him drink, become depressed, and write dark tales
ReplyDeleteAlly- He might be. But I don't really think that changes anything. It isn't very literal. I'm not even entirely sure they both fully exist. It almost seems at times as though William Wilson is a figment of the narrators imagination. I'm not saying that that is the case necessarily, but still. He found one person and projected all his fears onto that person. He saw all the bad/good whatever in him. He projected all his subconcious thoughts onto on person, and eventually he couldn't take it anymore and wanted to silence those thoughts.
ReplyDeleteWilson's playground as a child could symbolize his own mind. He feels trapped inside of it. They say that your mind is your own personal playground. Wilson may have just felt like something was missing from inside of his. It says "no trees, nor benches, nor anything similar within it." This shows that Wilson does not feel relaxed and blissful in his own mind, like most everyone else does.
ReplyDeleteI think the idea that he attended a masquerade is very symbolic of how he puts on a persona for sociaty when really he is having an internal struggle between what he believes he should be and what he knows he is.
ReplyDeleteKaeli- I think that this does relate to Poe's own life. It seems like he was very upset when his siblings died and knowing his gothic writing type he probably does relate some of this to his life.
ReplyDeleteThis story also reminds me of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Hyde is Jekyll's evil twin, in a sense, and Jekyll eventually dies when he kills off the part of him that is Hyde.
ReplyDeleteI hope this question hasn't already been asked, but what was the significance of the narrorator going to play a prank on the other boy only to see is face and not recognize it?
ReplyDeleteMarieP- Yes, by not using your name he becomes(in a way) demeaning to himself as a human being. This name was given to him by his parents, a name helps a person with finding themself, it makes then a different from everyone else. Even though, all humans are similar, we all have things that make us different (we all look different even if we all try to dress the same way or act the same way). Our name helps us (even if someone else has that name) become who we are supposed to be.
ReplyDeleteMarie -- He was definitely demeaning himself because when he was telling his story, he had already acknowledged the fact that he'd killed a vital part of himself ("unpardonable crime", second paragraph), and therefore was hardly a complete being.
ReplyDeleteBridget- That is exactly what I was thinking. He imitates the narrator so well because he halfway is him. The narrator makes fun of him becuase he is not cool. William Wilson is kind of the angel on his shoulder and the narrator doesn't want to do what the angel says. He is too "cool" to do what the angel says.
ReplyDeleteMelissa, but as you mentioned earlier he wasn't allowed to do immoral things by his counterpart - I think his misery is due to much more then just being bullied and dominated. Can children (dependent and controlled) be happy?
ReplyDeleteSydney- So true. If we go with the idea that William Wilson is his subconcious, or his concience (like jimminy cricket). He wants to run away from it, to silence it.
ReplyDeleteKailyn...I don't think you need to have evil in your live to necessarily be happy-I think Poe is suggesting you need it in your life to keep your conscious balanced. However, you are happy with a balanced conscious, so you could take it any way.
ReplyDeleteHow does the quote at the top relate to the story? Does it draw any connections to the text?
ReplyDeleteKelsey- That is a good observation; it shows how he tried to hide himself and be something he wasn't. It could be argued that that was an example of his persona coming out
ReplyDeleteSydney-I really agree with you. Wilson was definitely trying to escape from the bad parts of himself he did not like. It also sounds like he had a rough early childhood so it seems plausible that he was trying to escape from that. He also seems very competetive as evidinced by the fact that even though he was one of the best students he was still very competetive with the other "William Wilson". Perhaps he was also trying to escape from this and the fact that he would never be good enough or satisfied with his performance and abilities in his own eyes.
ReplyDeleteBrian- Yes! William Wilson is his Jimminy Cricket. He keeps trying to run from what William Wilson says and does, even though he knows it is right.
ReplyDeleteGrant -- I'm really not sure which it is. That's a good point and the whole thing is pretty confusing. I think in one way or another they both were each other's shadow (in different aspects).
ReplyDeletePaul- Wilson is the persona of the evil in the narrator. He is the bad side.
ReplyDeleteAlly- its interesting that you mentioned the word balance. Our group defined neurosis as not having a balance between our subconscious and our actions. William doesn't seem to have that balance, especially at the end when his alter-ego is murdered.
ReplyDeleteBen, that is an interesting thought I think maybe Poe is telling his own personl struggle through his stories and maybe that helped him cope but at the same time his personal struggle was too much to bear resulting in his depression and ultimate death.
ReplyDeletehaley i think because the alter-ego was part of himself he may not like that its there but he also feels comfortable knowing it was there
ReplyDeleteSarah: I think the quote in the prologue is meant to portray the idea that one's conscience can be thought of as grim or as an obstacle in the path that one desires. This frame of mind is that which the narrator seems to possess.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the story Wilson seems determined to classify people as above or below him, like a miniature caste system. He looks down on the people he beats at the poker game and he deems the other Wilson as his equal. He was so obsessed with being the best at everything that he creates a competition with himself.
ReplyDeleteKatie- When we studied neurosis, it said that when someone cannot balance their subconcious, they project it onto someone else. So maybe this is all about neurosis. He is projecting the unbalanced part of his subconcious onto William Wilson.
ReplyDeleteBridgetL - So, when children have imaginary friends, will that then later affect them later on in life? William Wilson proves that point from the text he constantly was taking to himself. So, is talking to yourself a problem or a bad thing to do?
ReplyDeleteSarahn-- I think a really key part of the quote at the top is when it says "conscience grim"... It seems to me that the quote is setting up that in the story that follows, anything having to do with the conscience will not be pleasent or easy.
ReplyDeletecan this "twin" truly keep all bad out of W.W.'s life? I think he is unhappy due to his own self - not because of his consious or his twin.
ReplyDeleteKailyn -- Nice point, I guess you're right...
ReplyDeleteKelsey -- Again, why is the duplicate the bad side, and not the narrator?
they are talking in the inner circle about how whenever he would try to use alcohol or gambling to escape, his "alter ego" would arrive and sabotauge him, i think that this was an example of how his concience won in the end, and gave him away
ReplyDeleteTrue I like the fact that soo many of Edgar Alan's Poems/ short stories revolve around the horror genre. It gives him the title as the author belated
ReplyDelete- Joel George
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